This isn't even the worst message from John. More to come.

Keep this shiite out of the forums. We’re trying to find casques here!

we all do and say things when we think we have the trust and confidence of the recipient. Clearly, this was only meant for the recipient and has no bearing on how we go about solving and discussing puzzles. Move along. Nothing to see here.

karleen wrote:: Move along. Nothing to see here. You realize this phrase is used precisely when there IS something to see, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKnX5wci404 The way I read it, it seems like JM might be getting information from one or more palencars about this puzzle (i.e., the secret)... that would be relevant to everyone here. maybe renner will have another podcast soon and tell us about it.

phrabbott wrote:: We’re trying to find casques here! Some one is ahead of you Morgan, I have looked over the NDA you have provided. It is very complete and covers anything that you disclose to me as being "confidential" but it has no protection from the information I provide to you. This information is more important to me than any info about Expedition Unknown which I may become privy to. I have spent 10 years researching The Secret. ******* has spent 30 years researching The Secret. I am unsure if you understand what it's like to research something for 10 years for free....How long have you been a paid producer at Expedition Unknown? My main concern, as you have asked if we have any questions, is that you will take our information and postulate it as Josh Gates' solution without any compensation for the origin of such a find. I am very enthusiastic about the interest of Expedition Unknown in regards to "The Secret," however I am not willing to give up years and years of research to your host in ultimate efforts for trafficking to sell ad space. I take my IP as serious business. 10 years is longer than any grad school, and my IP is not free for all, especially to an entity who exists mainly to sell ad space. I worked in TV and Radio for 15 years. When E.U. was picked up by discovery, incidentally the same time discovery bought travel which ended my SECOND reality series opportunity. The staff may have changed on the E.U. end, but nothing has changed in my world. I am asked now again to partner with the same people who have "fucked me over" (pardon the language but I was not happy about the dealing 1 year ago) in the past. Again, I understand the turnover, but the fact that your predecessors have taken my finds in the past while excluding me from the episode, how do I have confidence after this? It's an honest question Again, I am not trying to be difficult in any way, but if 30 years in the music business has taught me anything, it's to get EVERYTHING in writing and to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR on every aspect. I hope you can understand that this is 1/3'd of my life...for you it's just another episode...please consider that. I am a touring sound engineer with Grammy award winning rock bands, I am also a well respected radio DJ and local personality in Milwaukee and because of my pedigree I have the ears of Rolling Stone, Alternative Press, VICE, and the LA weekly. I only want to be FAIR in our dealings. I don't want to be raped of my information again, nor do I want to misrepresented the hunt this is my pedigree we are dealing with. I do, however hold the most complete information about this treasure hunt as I am friends with the CREATORS of the hunt. John Palencar the FATHER of my partner Kit Palencar was the original artist. My friends Ben Asen and JoEllen Trilling both worked with Byron Preiss on the book. I would hope that this venture would be something I could be involved with on a righteous basis. I am only holding feet to the fire. If you decide that I am too much trouble to deal with for your purposes I understand and will withdraw from your team, however, no matter what you want to believe, I have more FIRST HAND information on this treasure hunt than anyone you have spoken with. This is a fact. I am not trying to be gauche, however I am very serious about the time I have put into this. 10 years is nothing to balk at. I am willing to help if there is some reciprocal respect for the amount of time and effort I have put in myself. I want nothing more than to unearth the 3rd casque on TV with Josh Gates, however my integrity is more important to me than any TV show. **** and I are going to recover the San Francisco Casque, with or without a TV crew. I need to know where you stand on this. I know the dichotomy of the business, I've been in the entertainment industry for 30 years, I need to know how serious you are on protecting my information. There are plenty of people who can promise the casque, but I am the only person who can deliver one, I promise you. Again, I'm not trying to be dramatic or difficult, but I want you to understand how deep this thing is, 10 years is a decade, where were you 10 years ago? That is when I started working on The Secret. Please be aware of HOW LONG 10 years of research is. I have no desire to be on TV, I am more than willing to help your efforts though, as long as it doesn't trash my pedigree. I hesitated a long time to write this, as I am willing to help with this, but I just don't want the same treatment as I had last time with this same show. I understand you may see this as just another episode for your job, but I wanted to explain to you that it is much more than that to me. To me it is my life, my pedigree, and my passion. I only hope you can treat my work with the same amount of respect I give it. This email would not have been possible without the prior interaction between me and EU a year ago. This was my first interaction with reality TV. 5 other offers have followed, only 1 was genuine and that was squashed by the buy out. I want to be a positive factor and help recover one of these on film, but I question your integrity because of past interactions with this show. Again, out of all the people you have spoken to I have the most complete and correct info on the hunt. You can ask John Palencar if you like. Point is, I am the main guy on this hunt, and your former team did a good one on me last time around. How do I trust you? Just to be absolutely clear, if you don't want me involved in this, I am totally fine with that. I was approached by Adny Abrams to be part of this, and he is a TRUE friend, but I am not giddy about doing it. My intentions are to promote the Tribute Hunt and to explain how SF works and to prove it by digging up the casque. During the process of making the tribute at John Palencars house on **** H***** rd., I may or may not have gleaned info on the hunt. I can't make up your mind for you, either you can believe me and work with me, or just blow me off, it's your decision, but I'll tell you with my experience with the 5 reality TV shows so far, including Ex Un., I've learned to expect to be raped of your info and get nothing in return. This is what your industry has taught me, I'm sorry if that doesn't represent who you are, but its all I have to go by. -John Michaels

JM wrote:: my integrity is more important to me than any TV show

Hirudiniforme wrote:: You realize this phrase is used precisely when there IS something to see, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKnX5wci404 The way I read it, it seems like JM might be getting information from one or more palencars about this puzzle (i.e., the secret)... that would be relevant to everyone here. maybe renner will have another podcast soon and tell us about it. JM wrote:: During the process of making the tribute at John Palencars house on **** H***** rd., I may or may not have gleaned info on the hunt. You don't say?

I am not sure who you are, vlcfurst, but no one likes a tattletale or a snitch.

Egbert wrote:: I am not sure who you are, vlcfurst, but no one likes a tattletale or a snitch. True... but people HATE liars and cheaters.

Egbert wrote:: I am not sure who you are, vlcfurst, but no one likes a tattletale or a snitch. No one likes a liar either. Dear Mr. Ward, We are the attorneys for John Pivonka a/k/a John Michaels, the owner of Shhh the Secret Podcast. Mr. Pivanka owns the copyright and trademark for Shhh the Secret Podcast, notwithstanding the fact that you fraudulently recorded a federal copyright registration. The intellectual property of Mr. Pivanka is an extremely important and valuable asset of his business. Accordingly, Mr. Pivanka has instructed us to take the appropriate steps to protect his intellectual property and business interest. It has come to our attention that you are using and have copied our client’s copyright on podcasts and have deceived Facebook into locking him out of his social media page. This unauthorized use and copying is an infringement of Mr. Pivanka’s copyrights and a violation of federal law under the Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 501. Remedies available to our client include: • An injunction against further infringement • Impounding or destruction of infringing copies • Actual damages and statutory damages of up to $150,000 for each episode infringed • Costs and attorney’s fees Based on the above, we hereby demand that you: 1.Immediately cease and desist marketing, podcasting, distributing, and/or using any infringing works, including Shhh the Secret Podcast; 2.Immediately agree in writing that neither you nor any other person or entity acting on behalf of or in connection with you will directly or indirectly engage in any further unauthorized use of Mr. Pivanka’s intellectual property or any intellectual property that is confusing similar; 3.Immediately provide an accounting of the profits from the podcasts; 4. Immediately provide an accounting of any infringing podcasts and material that exists and deliver to our client all unauthorized items (e.g., digital images, recordings, pamphlets, products, etc.) in your possession, custody, or control (including social media pages) that include our client’s copyrighted works; 4.Immediately identify in writing any and all parties that have any unauthorized podcasts or materials that include our client’s copyrighted work; and 5. Restore ownership and/or access to Mr. Pivanka of all social media pages, websites and iTunes accounts relating to the podcast. We look forward to receiving your affirmative response that you have fully complied with the above-stated demands by April 17, 2019 at 5:00 pm CST. Our client would like to resolve this matter amicably, but will consider any and all legal action necessary to protect its valuable intellectual property rights under federal and state law. Please feel free to contact us with any questions regarding the contents of this letter or for details regarding compliance with the requests made. This letter is written without prejudice to the rights and remedies of our client, all of which are expressly reserved. Sincerely, __________________________ Alec Miller Rock Fusco & Connelly, LLC 321 N. Clark Street, Suite 2200 Chicago, Illinois 60654 312.494.1000 (p) I 312.494.1001 (f) [email protected] I hxxp://www.rfclaw.com

Unknown: Hi, My name is John Michaels. I stole information from all sorts of people, including the Palencars, and now I want to sell it. I wanna be the man so effin bad. Please clap. Or send me some money through GoFundMe. Either works. Love, JM Quick rundown for those who say TLDR:

I neither approve, nor disapprove of this post... But if we could keep me out of it I would appreciate it.

What pile of BS. I would get my own lawyer send him a letter. Most of the stuff on the site is stolen intellectual property from the publisher. I think a counter-suit and discovery is in order.

Choice wrote:: What pile of BS. I would get my own lawyer send him a letter. Most of the stuff on the site is stolen intellectual property from the publisher. I think a counter-suit and discovery is in order. The letter sounds like something Egbert would write.

Somebody is pissed.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Quick rundown for those who say TLDR: Yeah 421 we get it. We are supposed to be intimidated by a Liberal Chicago lawyer. So,can you tell me what John Michaels is trying to sell ?

The point is if JM took the publisher's intellectual property and then sends someone else cease and desist letter for violation of intellectual property then he has no standing. Both parties have "dirty hands".

"tightly knitted group"

Choice wrote:: The point is if JM took the publisher's intellectual property and then sends someone else cease and desist letter for violation of intellectual property then he has no standing. Both parties have "dirty hands". Nope you entirely missed the points. the first point is user vicfurst has broken multiple laws posting emails he has no right to post and posting text messages. reading and or posting someone else's email without their consent is, in fact, illegal. ... besides against the law in multiple states it is also a federal crime by posting a private email he is defacto encouraging others to break the law. the 2nd point is cowardly hiding behind an anonymous user name and posting other peoples writing without source or verification of any type should immediately make everyone suspect he has edited/falsified or outright created false parts of the messages. The last point is if you join in on attacks like this you are just as bad as vicfurst

The text screenshot is just a couple of B's gossiping. Who cares. I was commenting on the cease and desist request. Legally, if the site has illegal copies of the copy-righted images without written permission of the publisher then JM is violating the intellectual property of the publisher. Then he requests protection of intellectual property laws for his podcasts on the same site. He can't have it both ways. If anything he opens himself to a bigger liability.

Unknown: We are supposed to be intimidated by a Liberal Chicago lawyer. We? It's almost like battle lines are being drawn. Meanwhile, quietly, methodically, honestly, and with a minimum of drama or attention, we are still working the puzzle and it continues to give up its secrets. Slowly.

Share the clues! Goodness first Be kind to each other. It’s sad because the podcast was the best with JM + George and it was great

maltedfalcon wrote:: Nope you entirely missed the points. maltedfalcon wrote:: the first point is user vicfurst has broken multiple laws posting emails he has no right to post and posting text messages. maltedfalcon wrote:: reading and or posting someone else's email without their consent is, in fact, illegal... besides against the law in multiple states it is also a federal crime maltedfalcon wrote:: by posting a private email he is defacto encouraging others to break the law. maltedfalcon wrote:: the 2nd point is cowardly hiding behind an anonymous user name and posting other peoples writing without source or verification of any type should immediately make everyone suspect he has edited/falsified or outright created false parts of the messages. maltedfalcon wrote:: The last point is if you join in on attacks like this you are just as bad as vicfurst Sounds like somebody else might be using the information unethically gained from the Palencars. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! If you have a copy of an email or a text message that was given to you, it's yours and perfectly legal to post. Are you intimating that vlcfurst took somebody's phone and hacked somebody's email to get it? Then yes, that's illegal but also preposterous. are you saying it's illegal for us to read the email that was posted!? lulz. oh, snap! a misspelled legal term - "defacto"... we should definitely be scared, guys! No worries... I'm certain many of us can verify that these are in fact accurate texts and emails, with the exception of some stars added. No, MF, the last points are these... John takes information from everybody he can, then tries to sell himself into paying gigs by way of using that information as leverage (i.e., if you pay me, i'll let you in on my unethically gained information). He'll burn a relationship with anybody in the nastiest ways in order to appear as though he is an authority on the puzzle, or to make a dime. It seems like he did this with everyone from anus95 to the Palencars. Secondly, John has seemingly "gleaned" information from the Palencar(s) during a relationship with JJP's son making another puzzle, and was trying to use that information as leverage to get back on a TV show (i.e., fame and money). This all the while he is demeaning the Palencars, including the kid that helped him make the other puzzle. I'm sure the Palencars would be interested to know this, if they don't already. I'll tell you what wouldn't surprise me, if we were about to get another podcast... one that focused on an actual methodology to solve the puzzle instead of the tripe JM tried to use to drive the first one. A podcast that will once again make him look like the man, and perhaps make him another dime or two. A podcast that utilizes his ill-gotten information. If you two would like to run any of the content by me first, I'd be happy to verify if you're on the right track. By the way, you're near SF, MF, and we all know you and John are working together... how did that dig in SF go when he "promised" that he was going to dig up the casque?

And now we get the lull when JM's cronies all sign in to read the posts, then go strategize how to respond, 'cause clearly trying to scare vlc out of posting the information isn't going to work and they have no idea how much else is out there or who knows about it. Anybody wanna take bets on which burner account they get to slide this?

I got a fever! ..The only known cure is more "illegal emails"!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: LMFAO!!!!!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Sounds like somebody else might be using the information unethically gained from the Palencars.[/quote] See right there you just inferred I have access to some mythical unethical information from the Palencars I guess that would explain how easily I dug up the san Francisco Casque. JM created and publshed the podcast which has easily done more for this hunt than anything you have ever done. As a matter of fact when I look over your contributions I just see an angry troll. Seriously if I could choose who gets to be a part of this hunt, I would choose Gerald Gay over you.

maltedfalcon wrote:: See right there you just inferred I have access to some mythical unethical information from the Palencars. maltedfalcon wrote:: I guess that would explain how easily I dug up the san Francisco Casque. maltedfalcon wrote:: JM created and publshed the podcast which has easily done more for this hunt than anything you have ever done. maltedfalcon wrote:: As a matter of fact when I look over your contributions I just see an angry troll. maltedfalcon wrote:: Seriously if I could choose who gets to be a part of this hunt, I would choose Gerald Gay over you. I did infer that. Care to respond to that point? I don't want to infer again, but is this a negative response to whether you and JM dug up the casque "promised" to be there? Correct, he's a manager... of other people's information and creates mediums to publish it. Whether or not I have helped depends on what you understand. The anger ended years ago, now I'm just enjoying the hunt. And, again, what you interpret as trolling depends on what you understand. Speaking of... Let's get the focus back on the fact that JM declares he may have information gleaned from the Palencars, and his attempt to monetize that while demeaning them. We should also figure that any casque gained from that information is essentially poison fruit now. It would sure be a shame if a person(s) "gleaned" information from Palencar and then dug up a casque. Seems that would make the hunt a sham now.

I was once part of a Facebook group which included Hirudiniforme (aka Dave, I believe), in which Dave accused me of making up things that BP told me when he gave me the gemstone, just so I can throw other treasure hunters off track. That was so insulting (and laughable), I resigned from the group. However, that should show all of the rest of you who are part of Q4T whether you should "trust" any of Dave's accusations (or his buddy Renovator, whose first name I believe is Robert). That is, unless you believe that I have been on these boards for 15+ years with the nefarious purpose of throwing everyone else off track! So, who created the anonymous account which made these initial posts in this thread? Hmmm, that's a tough one, isn't it? Whose continuing objective is to troll these boards and inflame other people's attitudes for their own amusement? For those of you who are on the boards here because you are interested in the treasure hunt (just like me), ask yourself if what was posted initially on this thread, furthers the treasure hunt purposes in any way? These posts about the email and the text exchange are also probably fabricated or altered. They remind me of the posts we see every day on Facebook - usually about political leaders - in which a post is made about something a political leader said or did in the past, but the words are altered in some way, and yet a lot of people believe it. These posts in this thread are even less believable, though, since they are made from an anonymous account just created for that very purpose. As I recall, there was a post a while back about the Secret podcast - before it came out - in which the screenshot was doctored by the person who posted it, to imply that John was stealing James Renner's name for use on the podcast. It was totally false, and I am sure you can guess who was behind it. As for the accusation that John is looking for money out of this, ask yourselves this: Did John ask for or receive any money from all of the time and work he put into the Tribute hunt? Did he ask for or receive any money for all of the time and work he put into the Secret podcast? I am sure this post is going to be followed by some other attempt at fanning the flames, but I am hoping that the other Q4T members out there can view this with an open mind. Do not believe everything that some anonymous user or troll posts. I am hoping this thread can sink to the bottom in the near future, and we can go back to the fun of the treasure hunt, rather than be sidetracked by trolls. Thanks.

Egbert wrote:: I was once part of a Facebook group which included Hirudiniforme (aka Dave, I believe)... ^^^^ New Strategy Revealed 1. Doxx people 2. Cast doubt on legit information that affects the hunt for people trying to solve it legitimately. 3. DON'T ADDRESS THE FACTS, BLAME IT ON 421... 421 man bad. I think Egbert just reported this thread, but it is very important information that has come to light and is directly involved in this hunt. IMHO, it would be silly to remove it.

Unknown: So, who created the anonymous account which made these initial posts in this thread? Most likely someone who has/had access to the private places where these things are being discussed and documented. For the record, since the intial Facebook group was disbanded over two years ago and I was locked out, that is not me, nor do I know who it is. I'll also add, for the record, that I only have one account here (this one), I only post using this account, and to the best of my knowledge, I have never edited nor have I modified any of my posts. My words (good or bad) speak for themselves. I'll let 421 speak for himself.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I'll let 421 speak for himself. I am just enjoying the fact that somebody else that JM seemingly screwed over is making my trolling about it being Renner's podcast look like child's play.

Egbert wrote:: I was once part of a Facebook group which included Hirudiniforme (aka Dave, I believe), in which Dave accused me of making up things that BP told me when he gave me the gemstone, just so I can throw other treasure hunters off track. That was so insulting (and laughable), I resigned from the group. However, that should show all of the rest of you who are part of Q4T whether you should "trust" any of Dave's accusations (or his buddy Renovator, whose first name I believe is Robert). That is, unless you believe that I have been on these boards for 15+ years with the nefarious purpose of throwing everyone else off track! So, who created the anonymous account which made these initial posts in this thread? Hmmm, that's a tough one, isn't it? Whose continuing objective is to troll these boards and inflame other people's attitudes for their own amusement? For those of you who are on the boards here because you are interested in the treasure hunt (just like me), ask yourself if what was posted initially on this thread, furthers the treasure hunt purposes in any way? These posts about the email and the text exchange are also probably fabricated or altered. They remind me of the posts we see every day on Facebook - usually about political leaders - in which a post is made about something a political leader said or did in the past, but the words are altered in some way, and yet a lot of people believe it. These posts in this thread are even less believable, though, since they are made from an anonymous account just created for that very purpose. As I recall, there was a post a while back about the Secret podcast - before it came out - in which the screenshot was doctored by the person who posted it, to imply that John was stealing James Renner's name for use on the podcast. It was totally false, and I am sure you can guess who was behind it. As for the accusation that John is looking for money out of this, ask yourselves this: Did John ask for or receive any money from all of the time and work he put into the Tribute hunt? Did he ask for or receive any money for all of the time and work he put into the Secret podcast? I am sure this post is going to be followed by some other attempt at fanning the flames, but I am hoping that the other Q4T members out there can view this with an open mind. Do not believe everything that some anonymous user or troll posts. I am hoping this thread can sink to the bottom in the near future, and we can go back to the fun of the treasure hunt, rather than be sidetracked by trolls. Thanks. Seems confusing to say that the emails and texts posted here are fabricated or altered when a few post ago someone was bashing the author of those post for being a snitch. In the end, none of this really changes anything. There are always going to be people who try to profit off of others works and who are simply dishonest. After a decade of trying to find things that do not want to be found, I can see the motivation in trying to make this worth your while. As far as not believing some anonymous user, I would say the same about the majority of users here. What does it matter if you have an account for 15 years or one day, if you are dishonest? Your arguments against the posted materials gives the posts more credit then they had without.

NYCNative wrote:: In the end, none of this really changes anything. I disagree. If someone went into Palencar's house and gleaned information about the secret that they use to dig up a casque, or if the Palencars are sharing that information, it would delegitimize the puzzle. That seems to be what is stated in the original messages. It sure would be helpful for JM to come in and confirm the authenticity of things. Wonder why he hasn't? If you are working on the puzzle, but you know the creators information in his house was gleaned by another hunter, how does that make you feel?

Egbert wrote:: As for the accusation that John is looking for money out of this, ask yourselves this: Did John ask for or receive any money from all of the time and work he put into the Tribute hunt? Did he ask for or receive any money for all of the time and work he put into the Secret podcast? maltedfalcon wrote:: An entire team of people created and publshed the podcast which has easily done more for this hunt than anything you have ever done. Point #1: John asked me to pay for the casque painting by sending the painter a Japanese book AFTER I had bought two originals from them (one for me and one from John) for OVERBLOWN prices, He asked me to pay back "He who shall remain nameless" $500 from profits the podcast made via patreon for the Tribute gem. He asked me to have a friend of mine create a mobile app that would charge people $2 to ask a question about the tribute. John wanted to sell tshirts for the podcast and had me design them, but left before they were finished. I can post proof if you would like. Fixed that for you. Seriously. Between the three of us, we know JM has pissed off a lot of people. We know, there is a FUCKTON of info floating around out there. If you guys could shut the f**k up, quit fanning the flames, and let this die, I would appreciate it.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I disagree. If someone went into Palencar's house and gleaned information about the secret that they use to dig up a casque, or if the Palencars are sharing that information, it would delegitimize the puzzle. That seems to be what is stated in the original messages. It sure would be helpful for JM to come in and confirm the authenticity of things. Wonder why he hasn't? If you are working on the puzzle, but you know the creators information in his house was gleaned by another hunter, how does that make you feel? I totally understand and appreciate that. If someone betrayed Palencar's trust and still did not come up with a casque, then shame on them 100 fold. Obviously this thread did what it was intended to do, exposing JM and his clique. It speaks volumes to people's character and motives. So now that their intentions have been published, what more can be accomplished with this? I would say mission accomplished and well done.

NYCNative wrote:: exposing JM and his clique. Which clique?

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Which clique? Every person defending him and deflecting from the information posted.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Which clique? For real. JM left the podcast group in December. Don't include us in this fuckery.

burnstyle wrote:: For real. JM left the podcast group in December. Don't include us in this fuckery. I was not speaking about the podcast as much as I was speaking about the spin doctors here on this topic. But aren't you included in this? You obviously knew what was going on and what type of person you had been dealing with and said nothing, until...

NYCNative wrote:: You obviously knew what was going on and what type of person you had been dealing with and said nothing, until... You have a good point. I dunno, I've been attacked, and, well threatened to be sued by JM. I feel like those were private matters... so I didnt talk about them. Didn't figure anyone outside of the group would really care.

burnstyle wrote:: You have a good point. I dunno, I've been attacked, and, well threatened to be sued by JM. I feel like those were private matters... so I didnt talk about them. Didn't figure anyone outside of the group would really care. That is really ugly, as is all of this. One would swear this was a hunt for millions in gold with all this ill behavior. And this is all to find something worth pocket change and a possible 7 1/2 minutes of fame and the credit about being right about an armchair treasure hunt! I wouldn't worry about attacks or lawsuits from JM. He obviously has so many other problems that would take priority over a lawsuit worth next to nothing. The energy it would take alone to accomplish that would cost him more then he could ever obtain. Seriously guys and gal, how can you praise the people that made this book/hunt possible, then shit on them on every turn by being total dicks to each other in ways I would of never thought possible?

NYCNative wrote:: Seriously guys and gal, how can you praise the people that made this book/hunt possible, then shit on them on every turn by being total dicks to each other in ways I would of never thought possible? Four21Thrasher wrote:: Honestly, we just want to see the smile on his face... something reminiscent of what he showed when speaking about Byron and the legacy on EU. You misunderstand... we are shitting on the people that are discrediting the puzzle, and destroying the legacy of those that created it. And, they deserved to be outed and shamed for that. It truly is sad that Mr. Palencar will likely see all this, but I think it is essential to see for those who have tried to legitimately and honorably solve the puzzle. If nothing else, it will let you know who/what to stay away from to avoid getting mixed up in that drama.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: For the record, since the intial Facebook group was disbanded over two years ago hmmm that's news to me, but thanks for letting me know I will make it a point to stop using it.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Which clique?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I disagree. If someone went into Palencar's house and gleaned information about the secret that they use to dig up a casque, or if the Palencars are sharing that information, it would delegitimize the puzzle. Yes that's true, however Nobody did and they aren't.

maltedfalcon wrote:: hmmm that's news to me, but thanks for letting me know I will make it a point to stop using it. you may still be in it, but it was disbanded - i.e., broken up. for instance, i was banned when i disagreed with JM about monetizing the our info. he wanted to share it with a producer to get on a show after part of the pact of joining was that information would stay in the group. remember that? best thing that ever happened. thank God that was before you all seemingly got mixed up with gleaning information from the palencars. you want me to post some illegal texts of that conversation to remind you?

maltedfalcon wrote:: Yes that's true, however Nobody did and they aren't. John Michaels wrote:: My intentions are to promote the Tribute Hunt and to explain how SF works and to prove it by digging up the casque. During the process of making the tribute at John Palencars house on **** H***** rd., I may or may not have gleaned info on the hunt. Take it up JM. We didn't say it, but there's no reason for him to infer it if it wasn't true.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I did infer that. Care to respond to that point? I don't want to infer again, but is this a negative response to whether you and JM dug up the casque "promised" to be there? yes I would be happy to, I do not know nor have I ever heard any inside information from the Palencars. No I take that back, I heard one thing - that is confirmation that between the original image and the printing the NY image did not lose any thing. That was my theory before, but I got corrected. and when I heard that I put it out there right away. As far as your last point you seem to be vaccilating either we have inside info and are digging up casques which upsets you or we didn't dig up a casque because we obviously don't know anything and that upsets you. To quote from a great movie. "You are a sad pathetic little man, and you have my pity..."

maltedfalcon wrote:: ...vaccilating either we are digging up casques... maltedfalcon wrote:: or we didn't dig up a casque nope. yup. Neither upsets me. What upsets me is that people are using information unethically gained and destroying the legacy of the hunt and the creators, and the ability of everyone else to solve the puzzles honestly and honorably. If you are not part of the group doing so, I applaud you.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I do not know nor have I ever heard any inside information from the Palencars. No I take that back... If you are not part of the group doing so, I applaud you.

No, I understand four21. I am not shitting on you or anyone for bring this to light. I think we should all be aware of this. Thus why I said mission accomplished and good job. I was speaking to how we got to this point and the behavior that still does and will occur, especially from the people that claim their seniority here. I do not like where this hunt has gone but now that we are here....

NYCNative wrote:: No, I understand four21. I am not shitting on you or anyone for bring this to light. I think we should all be aware of this. Thus why I said mission accomplished and good job. I was speaking to how we got to this point and the behavior that still does and will occur, especially from the people that claim their seniority here. I do not like where this hunt has gone but now that we are here.... As for me, I simply carry on knowing that the past two plus years have been the best there ever was in my time in this hunt, and that the best are yet to come. It'd be a little bittersweet if someone rolled a hunt creator for information to solve the puzzles, but you'll all be able to look back and know I wasn't the one trolling... that it was always Preiss doing so, in a lighthearted way. I do find a little satisfaction in the fact that the guy who lost his loyalty over a buck has likely lost the ability to do it again. I truly see that guy as the one who ruined a forum, friendships, and very likely a hunt. Things were better off before he came in to manage everything, and he's the only one that's ever tried to do so.

I sure would like to hear from JM about the veracity and accuracy of the messages, especially in light of his buddies calling it into question. Strange he hasn't logged in to to say anything... he signs in all the time. Funny thing, those buddies that were saying "421 man bad" and espousing that I am to be doubted should be able to verify whether he did, in fact, send those messages by just asking him and reporting back. That being if he is too scaredy to report back himself, or if they know the information is true.

Unknown: hmmm that's news to me, but thanks for letting me know I will make it a point to stop using it. You should have stopped using it two years ago when 421 and I were locked out for simply trying to protect the information that we were assured would not be shared with anyone outside the group without our express consent. If you had, you probably would not be directly involved in this mess, and might even be closer to the casque that has eluded you for the last 36+ years. Like it or not Matt, whatever happens from here on will likely be sullied by this whole, sordid affair.

I agree. Exposing him was important and does some good. However, this is just an example of anytime someone getting a bit of power and letting it go to their head. Just imagine if everyone here who actually wants to see solves was honest, transparent and forthcoming about what they know. I would find it hard to believe that we would not have seen another casque by now, if that was the case. But since we all can not work with each other under such guidelines, lets go back to viewing the wacky theories from "anonymous" people who claim they can see things in the image that others can not, cause they are clearly special (those are my favorites). I suspect more will come out of this thread then what has already been posted. Seems to be more exciting then any of the hunts going on currently. I don't think another casque will ever be found again but at very least, some answers can be found. I am content with that.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: You should have stopped using it two years ago when 421 and I were locked out for simply trying to protect the information that we were assured would not be shared with anyone outside the group without our express consent. If you had, you probably would not be directly involved in this mess, and might even be closer to the casque that has eluded you for the last 36+ years. Like it or not Matt, whatever happens from here on will likely be sullied by this whole, sordid affair.

Unknown: I don't think another casque will ever be found again but at very least, some answers can be found Bravo. Finally someone who shows an understanding of the Step 5 Fallacy. For the record, I think you are wrong about another casque being found NYC, but time will tell who is right and who is wrong on that score.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Bravo. Finally someone who shows an understanding of the Step 5 Fallacy. For the record, I think you are wrong about another casque being found NYC, but time will tell who is right and who is wrong on that score. someone has to be the optimist in the group. I do think the solve is out there for some of them but getting it out of the ground after all this time, if it is still in the same spot, just seems slim. Then again, I have only really focused on one puzzle, so I do hope I am wrong. But that is for another topic... So JM....what an asshole!

Unknown: So JM.... Who's JM?

NYCNative wrote:: ... getting them out of the ground after all this time, if it is still in the same spot, just seems slim. NYCNative wrote:: So JM....what an asshole! Seriously, that Chicago one seems to have moved all over the place over the years, and the one that guy with Egbert found had jumped clear to the other side of the planter. Anybody who's ever buried anything knows it starts moving the moment you put it under ground. I suppose after 40 years, the Houston casque might actually be in Pittsburgh.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Seriously, that Chicago one seems to have moved all over the place over the years, and the one that guy with Egbert found had jumped clear to the other side of the planter. Anybody who's ever buried anything knows it starts moving the moment you put it under ground. I suppose after 40 years, the Houston casque might actually be in Pittsburgh. Yes, cause that is what I am talking about. The casques ability to sprout legs and walk around to elude anyone searching for it. Or maybe, just maybe, some of them have moved due to construction, renovations, erosion and my favorite obstacle, tree roots. But since nothing changes in 40 years, I guess your sarcasm is warranted.

NYCNative wrote:: Yes, cause that is what I am talking about. The casques ability to sprout legs and walk around to elude anyone searching for it. Or maybe, just maybe, some of them have moved due to construction, renovations, erosion and my favorite obstacle, tree roots. But since nothing changes in 40 years, I guess your sarcasm is warranted. Would chicago still be there today? Cleveland was the same spot 20some years later. Sure a couple may be gone due to construction, but certainly that doesn't move them. I cant wait to come on here and say a couple more are gone due to a Erpobdelliforme.

Damn, this shit is still going on?!

Choice wrote:: Damn, this shit is still going on?! Most definitely. Apparently there is a lot more info out there about JM screwing people over and cheating, too. This should be on the top for a while, at least until JM comes on to assure us none of the info was true and solidify just how bad 421 man bad is.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Would chicago still be there today? Cleveland was the same spot 20some years later. Sure a couple may be gone due to construction, but certainly that doesn't move them. I cant wait to come on here and say a couple more are gone due to a Erpobdelliforme. Are you seriously pulling hairs to getting into an argument about the word move in this context? You had some good points today and made convincing arguments. You should quit while you are ahead. I am starting to see that angry troll nonsense that you are so well known for.

NYCNative wrote:: Are you seriously pulling hairs to getting into an argument about the word move in this context? No I was actually addressing a common thought within the forum... that the casques move while underground, and so they can be easily missed even if you know exactly where to dig. I thought you were actually making that point. The way I phrased it was done to include Erpobdelliforme retrieving another couple, as you had mentioned Erpobdelliformes.

Unknown: that the casques move while underground, and so they can be easily missed even if you know exactly where to dig Just to be clear, it is my opinion that even today, almost 38 years after BP started burying these things, one can still dig a small hole exactly where he did, and with not too much more effort than he used, find a casque. In fact, I would place the over/under at 6. The trick, as always, is to find the spots he was referring to when he told his friend Ben Asen that perhaps he had done too good of a job hiding them.

Full disclosure (mainly because I just remembered a lot of the specifics that were on the tip of my tongue last night) There is a production company called "Low Spark Films" or Low Spark something...anyways, this is the production company that James Renner used to film the documentary on The secret 4 or 5 years ago. He's been releasing clips here and there on a website called hxxp://twelvesecretkeys.blogspot.com/ The clips look terrible, the lighting guy must have been blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. It's filmed in glaucoma-vision. James Renner is also a crime and fiction writer and has been on some cold cases for a while now, he's a bottomfeeder who likes to think he's clever. Nonetheless he was picked up by FOX for his "true crime" writings. I can't confirm, but it would be my suspicion that him or Low Sparks may be shopping their movie to NBC as it seems to have a hard time being accepted to Cannes or anywhere else. James is one of the few people who was in the know early on in the game. He used to be part of my original "group" and was thrown out for non-contribution and stealing other people's solutions to use as his own. James was able to obtain interviews with Byron's widow, his family, Palencar, and others involved with the hunt, and then instead of making and releasing a documentary, he turned into a treasure hunter himself, without doing any work. The reason why expedition unknown failed at properly explaining The Secret, and the reason nothing is found in Milwaukee using my solution which Renner stole and gave to Josh to dig there, is because James Renner never put in any of the work associated with the puzzle, instead he stole pieces of other peoples work and just strung together his own haphazard theories which do not hold up or make a lot of sense. I would suspect he is having a hard time selling his project for this reason, however, he knows enough about it to interest someone who knows absolutely nothing, like NBC Universal. Also if you look in the Email's, Renner is threatening to alert "Colby and his crew" meaning John Colby the owner of the book. Again we have never been contacted by Stuart Brookman, or John Colby If this deal is NOT James Renner, you should at least be aware of James Renner as he is the kind of person who would use others efforts to capitalize for himself. James interviewed our friend Mark, told him that he was using the audio only portion of the skype conference they did, so Mark didn't bother to "dress up" and then he released the video portion. Mark was PISSED and finally got him to take it down after the damage was done. Another person to be aware of is a Milwaukee reporter who writes for Vice occasionally named Zach Brooke. He did the article on me which you read. He also went out and dug up one of my spots after interviewing me. Although less of the threat, I thought I would mention him. With the way I was treated by Renner, Brooke, and Metal Flowers (which you are aware of) led me to be less than optimistic with the media and the main reason I was so cautious at first with you. At this point in our relationship, Whitney, you are the only media person I trust on this venture anymore. John Colby's Email address as far as I know is *********@***.com -Best

JM wrote:: James Renner, you should at least be aware of James Renner as he is the kind of person who would use others efforts to capitalize for himself. And in his own words, he makes it clear why I trolled him by saying "Renner's podcast."

Castlehat is missing? How do you lose a painting? That one is probably the best one of them all too.

Choice wrote:: Castlehat is missing? How do you lose a painting? That one is probably the best one of them all too. Dammit... Sigh... byron had it, and no one could find it after he died. No one knows where it is.

Kit should paint a new one.

Choice wrote:: Kit should paint a new one. Dont make fun of kit, he's genuinely a good dude. And did really well with the limitations he had.

What limitations? His hands were broke?!

Why is everyone more concerned with their own importance and little secrets that are probably meaningless? The great part of sharing and doing what we can to move things forward is we eventually figure out we know very little about what these puzzles are actually doing. One day a lucky and hard working person or group will get it done. I'm not sure all the sniveling and flaming is just the face of frustration, because nobody knows shit. I really didnt mind talking to Renner or Zach or many of the folks working there shtick. The gears of journalism arent perfect, but is it not entertaining and interesting when they start whirring? If JM really knows something that will help recover a casque, good, as long as we learn something. The drama with Masquerade caused a lot of mixed feelings and that was too bad. I dont support cheating, but at least people had fun for awhile and now we know more about how K.Williams made his puzzle. I prefer to look at the paintings and verses and enjoy the book as it was intended. I really dont get the rumors and dumb attitudes. A few artistic scribbles and memes from 421 can be annoying, but hey, welcome to life. Carry on weirdos.

Seems like people are coming out of the woodwork to rat out the rats. As it should be. For all those who would like some contrast to what is going on, and an example of how honest people talk about things... Here's some messages that 421 man bad sent: [sarc]Be forewarned - "illegal emails" follow, so avert your eyes if you don't want to be implicated in a federal crime [/sarc] And here's one for Erexere (who should, btw, post more often so I can work on my photoshopping skills) : And here's our true fee fees:

Hirudiniforme wrote:: If you are not part of the group doing so, I applaud you. MF...er... would you like to revisit this statement and perhaps add a bit more?

It just occurred to me that this vlc character might just be a Palencar. Probably not but, whoever you are whistle-blower man, you have my gratitude for exposing this mess.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: MF...er... would you like to revisit this statement and perhaps add a bit more? I see you have trouble with plain english

Hirudiniforme wrote:: MF...er... would you like to revisit this statement and perhaps add a bit more? MF wrote:: I see you have trouble with plain english You mean the part where you admit to cheating, but only a little? I understand plain English, and I also understand you were very careful in the way you chose to respond. Luckily, so do the rest of us.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I sure would like to hear from JM about the veracity and accuracy of the messages, especially in light of his buddies calling it into question. Strange he hasn't logged in to to say anything... he signs in all the time. Funny thing, those buddies that were saying "421 man bad" and espousing that I am to be doubted should be able to verify whether he did, in fact, send those messages by just asking him and reporting back. That being if he is too scaredy to report back himself, or if they know the information is true. bump.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: bump.

Unknown: Thanks Strike, but I’m getting the sense that no one cares. I mean, it’s a 38 year-old-hunt with no end in sight for most. The truth is that a lot of people would love to see this hunt to come to a conclusion, and they don’t seem to be bothered much by how that comes about. And I’m not just talking about the frustrated casque searchers either. The list includes anybody for whom this hunt has just become a bother – the owners of the Fountain of Youth Park, the nice ladies who run the Elizabethan Gardens, or any of the myriad Park’s Department employees in various cities where there might still be a casque (or not-looking at you Pittsburgh) just to name a few. What might be an enjoyable pastime for a small group of folks is just a huge inconvenience for everyone else, most certainly to include JJP and his family. So really, who cares if a few people cheat, but just a little bit? Right? I mean, it’s just enough to make some progress toward recovering these things. A little hint here. A little nudge there. It’s not like there is any money at stake, or any real fame, unless you’re driven to finagle that somehow. Hunters just want the satisfaction of knowing the answers, and creators seem to just want the answers out and the hunt over. Honestly, I think only two people care how the hunt resolves and what the legacy of the puzzle becomes. And once our secret is out, once THE secret is out, however that comes to pass, we'll no longer care either.

None of this makes sense to me. However, buried treasure, secrets, fortune and fame. What could possibly go wrong.

Unknown: None of this makes sense to me. Seems to me that it makes perfect sense to you.

This thread is proof that the forums need to be purged and started over from scratch. It's an autistic screechfest.

TMBSDR

Many of these threads are titled in a way which helps us decide where good info can be found. This is clearly not one of them.

Unknown: This is clearly not one of them. Its got over 1,200 hits E. Clearly people have found a way around the limitation you are suggesting. Even those who haven't felt the need to post in months, or in one case, almost a year. TLDR: It is interesting. And informative.

Unknown: This thread is proof that the forums need to be purged and started over from scratch. Looks like that's already started. Presumably they're Seabasses, but given Mark's warning hovering over us, it's impossible to tell. If it is voluntary however, , then it's further proof of how little regard some people have for this Forum, and it's historical record.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Looks like that's already started. Presumably they're Seabasses, but given Mark's warning hovering over us, it's impossible to tell. If it is voluntary however, , then it's further proof of how little regard some people have for this Forum, and it's historical record. For example... Goldengate has been completely purged. More to come, I'm sure.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Looks like that's already started. Presumably they're Seabasses, but given Mark's warning hovering over us, it's impossible to tell. If it is voluntary however, , then it's further proof of how little regard some people have for this Forum, and it's historical record. What is a Seabass in this context?

dosethree wrote:: What is a Seabass in this context? Mr. Seabass was a user who got to the end of his rope and had his entire post history erased by the admin. Fenix was another who followed suit. Whether you agree of disagree with either of them, the forum ultimately loses when this happens.

One thing all these gone guys had in common was that they all trolled Josh C. To quote a great philosopher: "Can't we all just get along?"

Unknown: One thing all these gone guys had in common was that they all trolled Josh C. This is the Hotel California. You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave. So gone? Not likely. And while Fenix may have had his disagreements with JC (who didn't), I wouldn't put him in the same category as the other two. Their behavior toward JC can best be described as viscious, bordering on the absurd.

I do miss Mister EZ and Scrappy though!

Choice wrote:: I do miss Mister EZ and Scrappy though! What ever happened to the alcoholic comedian dork who was into outlandish soccer (IIRC) that used to frequent this forum? Rumor has it the guy was bludgeoned by a psycho-stalker with a predisposed fantasy for postmarking wrist bones ... anyone know what became of that dude? Asking for a friend, of course!

atdreamer2112 wrote:: ... Rumor has it the guy was bludgeoned by a psycho-stalker with a predisposed fantasy for postmarking wrist bones ... Oh man, I missed sooo much of fun here!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: For example... Goldengate has been completely purged. More to come, I'm sure. Goldengate left long before this happened. He emailed Mark and asked for all his posts to be removed. I'm unsure if his account was actually deleted though.

It really says something about the people's character when they nuke their posts so no one else can benefit from them. Josh C. was not so vindictive to do so.

Choice wrote:: Josh C. was not so vindictive to do so. He didn't have a choice.

Choice wrote:: It really says something about the people's character when they nuke their posts so no one else can benefit from them. Josh C. was not so vindictive to do so. Josh was a little different. He didnt leave, he was voted out by a group of members survivor style. There were 10 or 12 people, 1 abstained from the vote, 1 voted to leave him alone and let him remain, a couple voted to remove him and his posts, and the rest voted to remove him and keep his posts. For the record I voted to remove him and his posts. I felt like the toxicity and aggression of his comments would keep new memebers from posting out of fear they would be attacked. On the flip side removing his posts would cause other members to look like they were randomly ranting with no context. Ultimately he was removed and his posts were kept. Fenix quit the board in protest of that (and other reasons I'm sure, I dont know his motivations as a whole). Fenix leaving was the hardest hit this board has taken imo. Goldengate quit shortly after that. EU really changed this place... before EU no one really attacked each other. The only 'enemies' the board had were 421 and ren, and they were only enemies if you were JM. Other that that, they were generally polite and helpful (though even they admit they can be smartasses) to everyone here. Stupid posts weren't met with insults as much... generally just a default copy/paste message about how the poster should go back and read the board so they could catch up. Though, the people who sought out the board before EU were different too. Before EU new memebrs were generally people who liked and had experience with either logic puzzles or treasure hunts in general. After EU, it's people who like reality TV. That lack of experience makes a huge difference. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent. My point... I think... was, the board is changing a lot. EU caused it to be a lot more negative. Whether that helps or hurts the hunt is debatable. And some people left because of it.

I thought folks who chose to have their posts removed did so because they felt they had some critical piece of knowledge on the board and they were making an effort to hide it as they moved onto some new phase of their Secret journey.

Unknown: EU really changed this place... Convenient, but complete and utter BS. What really changed this place, (and your post George pretty much removes any remaining doubt I might have had) is that a small group of people decided amongst themselves that what they were doing individually was more important that what the Forum was doing collectively. And those same people put their interests above ours, and the puzzle as a whole. We are the "enemies" here for one, and only one reason. And that is no matter what was going on, 421 and I insisted on telling the truth, and that truth was, and continues to be, inconvinient for the rest of you.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: a small group of people decided amongst themselves that what they were doing individually was more important that what the Forum was doing collectively. Believe what you want man, it's up to you. But as someone who (I presume) is inside that small group of people you are talking about, I can say that just about everyone I have talked to has stopped posting because the forum turned argumentative. They moved on to more helpful and public places. This is a fun hobby for most. What the point of hanging out in a place that isnt fun? Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying this is the fault of you and 421... including you guys in that post was meant more as a lighthearted comment. I can see how it would not be taken that way. Sorry.

I DO however agree with you that this forum has been sabotaged by some alt accounts. I dont know who controls them... but what they have done is shitty. I wish there was more moderation... but there isnt.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: And those same people put their interests above ours, and the puzzle as a whole. We are the "enemies" here for one, and only one reason. And that is no matter what was going on, 421 and I insisted on telling the truth, and that truth was, and continues to be, inconvinient for the rest of you. Now, what would be really neat is if you died for our sins and were resurrected three days later....or something like that.

If you all could only see the shit eating grin plastered across my face right now... More to come when I manage to stop laughing. MFW they realize that the slow spill thread was never about a slow spill from me, but was instead a provocation of the slow spill from "them."

Hirudiniforme wrote:: "them." You guys created the monster. A couple of us dealt with his wrath till it became unbearable. The lawyers still defend him. There is a single common denominator in all of the drama, the silent one.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: You guys created the monster. No, we recognized it, and scurried far far far away.

"Please state your full name and dig location for the record. Do you solemnly swear to contribute for the common good of all in this forum?" It's been fun to watch some people grow up in this forum. It's not been so fun watching people grow old. Then there's the rare case where someone has a sort of benjamin-button deal going on, and before they can dig up a casque, their old little baby hands cant do nuthin'. We should really try harder to get along. Sometimes we can use all the help we can get.

erexere wrote:: We should really try harder to get along. Quite the opposite. Arguments about ideas are integral to solving the puzzle. It's a shame that some people have forgotten that an argument is not a bad thing, nor offensive. The idea of the puzzle is not to all agree on an idea, but instead to be critical of one another until the answer reveals itself. That being said, when a group of folks who run the board decide to post images of a user in his underwear with a guitar, and antagonize others with personal insults, they really should try to join back in the arguments and leave that shit alone.

That's what getting along is all about. Not liking a person's idea should never be taken as a personal offense.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Quite the opposite. Arguments about ideas are integral to solving the puzzle. It's a shame that some people have forgotten that an argument is not a bad thing, nor offensive. The idea of the puzzle is not to all agree on an idea, but instead to be critical of one another until the answer reveals itself. Hirudiniforme wrote:: post images of a user in his underwear with a guitar This is so well put...it's like you have been listening to my conversations. I love it. Please, let's do this more. I posted a link to a youtube video of Josh playing a guitar way back when I thought he was a burner account. If you are referencing that, it was a "whoa, this guy is actually real" post. I also met Josh in Montreal, spent a few hours wandering and listening to his ideas, then bought him lunch and a couple of beers. The dude is harmless, passionate, and quite intelligent. I also believe he is way off base when it comes to the puzzles but the amount of research he does, I am hoping he finds something important and doesn't overlook or misinterpret it.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: This is so well put...it's like you have been listening to my conversations. burnstyle wrote:: There were 10 or 12 people... Or have I? NYET VODKA VODKA!! So, everybody just gonna leave this alone? Nobody's gonna ask?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Convenient, but complete and utter BS. What really changed this place, (and your post George pretty much removes any remaining doubt I might have had) is that a small group of people decided amongst themselves that what they were doing individually was more important that what the Forum was doing collectively. And those same people put their interests above ours, and the puzzle as a whole. We are the "enemies" here for one, and only one reason. And that is no matter what was going on, 421 and I insisted on telling the truth, and that truth was, and continues to be, inconvinient for the rest of you.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: So, everybody just gonna leave this alone? Nobody's gonna ask? Ok, I'll do it... Who's on the board of overlords, Burnstyle?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Ok, I'll do it... Who's on the board of overlords, Burnstyle? They can out themselves if they want to. It involved a long conversation over the course of a couple of week between a mixture of new and old (but mostly old) respected and level headed memebers of the forum and Mark the admin. I was the only person in the group who was a regular on the podcast. I also did not organize the group or make the selection. I was genuinely surprised that I was chosen to be a part of it

Fenix was the guy who voted no. Basically, a guy who wanted JC banned hand picked some people who also wanted JC banned, plus Fenix.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Fenix was the guy who voted no. Basically, a guy who wanted JC banned hand picked some people who also wanted JC banned, plus Fenix. The Fenix part is true, Though I can think of several people who did not initially want him banned, and wouldn't really have a reason to.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: I'm not privy to that info. Ironically, the user that led the charge went the way of the buffalo. Also true.

burnstyle wrote:: I can think of several people who did not initially want him banned, and wouldn't really have a reason to. I'm not privy to that info. Ironically, the user that led the charge went the way of the buffalo.

GoGa tried to ban me too + a few of you guys too I'm sure. Ultimately it's Admin's decision not the "survivor style" voting. Where do you get this stuff BS?

Choice wrote:: GoGa tried to ban me too + a few of you guys too I'm sure. Ultimately it's Admin's decision not the "survivor style" voting. Where do you get this stuff BS? I have a file. 'BS from BS' I pull from it randomly. I was never involved in a convo about you, 421, ren, or anyone other than jc. If they occurred I dont know about them.

Unknown: I have a file. 'BS from BS' No doubt that explains the crickets from the rest of the Star Chamber.

In a true Secrocracy, you're always the last one to know the truth. This is a forum after all. You can use it to discuss ideas, even your feelings about those ideas. When a person signs on to Q4T, they should feel welcomed. Disruptive behavior can be tolerated to some extent, but when does it become necessary to draw a line?

Unknown: Disruptive behavior can be tolerated to some extent, but when does it become necessary to draw a line? I don't know E. We tolerated you and much of your nonsense, ultimately to our benefit. That set the bar pretty high, or low as some would have us believe.

erexere wrote:: Disruptive behavior can be tolerated to some extent, but when does it become necessary to draw a line? When the same group of individuals disrupting tries to take control of the board.

erexere wrote:: Disruptive behavior can be tolerated to some extent, but when does it become necessary to draw a line? Great point. I don't have an answer but whatever the answer, it should remain clear, consistent, and objective for everyone.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: When the same group of individuals disrupting tries to take control of the board. I would be surprised if Mark let's anyone take control of the board. Its here for our benefit until he decides to rm -rf *

I think this thread needs to be closed as it no longer relevant/off topic and will devolve into more witch hunting.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: the silent one.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: yoursuperguest wrote:: I wanted to be a silent observer... The only reason this user has ever spoken has been to ask for content to be removed. Hmm.

Egbert shill. (edit. J/K but you never know these days. Back in the 2nd quarter of 2004, there were some spats about who deserves glory and recognition. It really shouldn't be about that, but that continues to be a big problem in how people act on their motivations.)

Maybe it's because I like reading/researching the actual search and don't care for adults acting like children. Go ahead and accuse me of being a shill or an alt or whatever, it's not my problem. Point still stands that this thread is only going to make things worse.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: The lawyers still defend him. Damn, did I screw up? Sorry.

It's better to discuss some concerns in their own thread. This thread and it's strangely personal title only educates us of the pitfalls of complicated or compromised partnerships, but it also represents a temptation for people to fan the flames. The questioning of people's motivations needs a home in some thread, preferably one that's not more focused, i.e. Image #, Verse #, General Questions, etc. Definitely use your energy to find casque. If you cant do it alone, learn how to trust others to help. Like it or not, theres a lot of interesting personalities involved already and those who are passionate about making progress are a gift to the cause. Who knows, maybe Josh will be the next casque finder, JM next, 421-ren after that, myself and then someone from the second wave of EU.

erexere wrote:: This thread and it's strangely personal title only educates us of the pitfalls of complicated or compromised partnerships Forgotten so soon that the thread started b/c the puzzle itself is comped by somebody who pimped the Palencars? That's information nobody should forget.

Hmm. I just listened to the Pimping the Palencars podcast. It sounded fun for all involved. Is the concern really about the integrity of the puzzle being compromised? I really dont believe Palencar #1 or #2 are helping anyone to have an unfair advantage. I think it's funny to even try to go down that path. Being a superfan of the Secret and visiting the Palencars is just a fun experience.

erexere wrote:: Hmm. I just listened to the Pimping the Palencars podcast. It sounded fun for all involved. Is the concern really about the integrity of the puzzle being compromised? I really dont believe Palencar #1 or #2 are helping anyone to have an unfair advantage. I think it's funny to even try to go down that path. Being a superfan of the Secret and visiting the Palencars is just a fun experience. I can assure you that one or more Palencars has given information to specific individuals about the puzzle that would have not otherwise been known to those individuals. You seem to not be aware of or have that information. As such, it would seemingly be evident to you that the puzzle is not being solved on an even playing field. If I am incorrect, and the you are aware of that information, then it should also be clear to you that not everyone does. As such, it would seemingly be evident to you that the puzzle is not being solved on an even playing field. When one or more of the puzzle's creators are involved with providing information to specific individuals, yes, the puzzle is comped. What that does is give those folks gold fever... they got the inside clues. You see this playing out ("I promise I know where one is... fact. I may or may not have pimped the palencars to get the information"). Luckily, the clues provided seemingly have only made the puzzle more confusing for those folks. The golden goose turned into the midas touch.

I have some serious doubts that the Palencars could solve any of these puzzles if they tried, so anything they have to say doesn't influence the game for me. I can understand having suspicious concerns, but it seems really pointless to go on about it until we know what is real or what is rumor.

erexere wrote:: I have some serious doubts that the Palencars could solve any of these puzzles if they tried, so anything they have to say doesn't influence the game for me. I can understand having suspicious concerns, but it seems really pointless to go on about it until we know what is real or what is rumor. I didn't say anything about the palen cars being able to solve the puzzles. However that does not mean the information they release won't help somebody else do so. That absolutely affects the puzzle for you and anybody else trying to legitimately solve it. I wouldn't be going on and on about this if it Rumor and not real. You can read it and jm's own words a few pages back. He's got so close he came through the other side.

Ok. I must've missed reading that. Looks like JM is saying hes recused because he thinks he knows some inside info.

I take it you're 1 of the 10 or 12, E?

Can you be more specific?